Brainstorming Bologna with Matt Ferrel and Ben Bator
We welcome you on a jorg into the sausage factory. Join three guys with nice hair on our unhinged bullshit brainstorm session.
This episode overflows with laughter, quips, and quibbles with two smart friends, Ben Bator and Matt Ferrel.
They bring out the best worst version of each other. For your entertainment and education.
Ben Bator is the co-founder of Texts From Last Night (perhaps you recall the unfiltered hilarious glimpses of university life captured in texts back in the day?). He also co-founded Lafayette American, an ad agency working with global brands.
Matt Ferrel worked for Google and now is a marketing consultant, investor, and the head of marketing for TickPick. These long-time friends also put together Mille Mitten, a thousand-mile road rally that tours Michigan in three days.
During our episode, we talk about how Ben and Matt met and their career journeys. We muse about the future of driving culture and how to manipulate content algorithms. We also come up with some innovative ideas for improving movie theaters, EV charging network potentials, and better ways to go about conferences.
Links to Platforms:
In this episode:
Matt questions the existence of large conferences.
For Electric vehicles, we should turn Gas Stations into Dave & Buster’s.
I radically innovate Movie Theaters. Hear me out: massage chairs, pillows and blankets, snacks spaced throughout the movie, Faraday cages... The list goes on.
I also learned some things too:
Texts From Last Night capitalized on the early days of social media. People could anonymously share texts from wild nights out. Nailed the opportunities of a transition of medium.
Matt describes working for Google as “an adult daycare. With lots of smart people around.”
Matt worked in the music industry for AEG Presents. He said it was his Icarus moment. The live events industry sounds stressful.
You’ll either love or hate this informal concoction of chaos – let me know which it is!
Learn more about Ben Bator:
Learn more about Matt Ferrel:
Additional episodes if you enjoyed:
Episode Transcript:
Eric Jorgenson: Hello again, my friends, and welcome. I'm Eric Jorgenson, and this podcast is never gonna give you up, let you down, or desert you. This show explores technology, investing, entrepreneurship, and personal growth that will help you and the rest of humanity create a brighter, more abundant future. This podcast is one of a few projects I work on. To read my book, blog, newsletter, or invest alongside us in early-stage tech companies, please visit ejorgenson.com. Today on the podcast, my guests are two hilarious and hugely successful friends of mine from the Michigan tech world. Ben Bator is the co-founder of Texts From Last Night and Lafayette American, an ad agency that has worked with and won global brands and won global awards. They do some really amazing work; check out their website. Matt Ferrel is a marketing consultant, investor, and the new head of marketing at tickpick.com. Before that, he spent five years at Google in various roles. He spent most of his career in live events, sports, and entertainment. We get into some great stories about that. These guys have long been friends, and I love spending time with them. They're absolutely hilarious. A hobby that they have put together, a sort of side business, is called Mille Mitten. We talk about it a fair bit. It's a thousand-mile road rally that laps all of the state of Michigan in three days. So, these are big car guys. We get into some of their car picks and road trip stories. We talk about their careers, stories, and ideas from all over the place. And then at the end, we play a little game, setting out to solve all the world's problems. We do some brainstorming, some innovation, we talk about movie theaters, charging networks, conferences. This podcast really leans into the fun and unstructured side of things. So, buckle up, listen fast, try to catch all the quips, and I hope you enjoy. Thank you for listening.
Matt has just lost his podcast virginity. Matt’s first podcast ever begins now.
Ben Bator: I was never here.
Matt Ferrel: I thought it was already over. I thought we were done.
Eric Jorgenson: Have you done this a bunch before, Ben?
Ben Bator: Mostly just like in my head, like walking around. Dude, don’t you like do the podcast-?
Eric Jorgenson: Respond to the podcast out loud while you're cleaning, yeah, or like singing into your shampoo in the shower.
Ben Bator: It's kind of replaced the singing for me. It's really more of like you just go through the walk of your day of like if someone were to ask you a question that was kind of like rambling, not rambling, like where would you take the walk? And that's kind of my podcast prep.
Eric Jorgenson: That's fair. So, you're very ready for this moment. I've been looking forward to this for like six months because the last time we three were all together was in Detroit getting dinner, and I laughed for like three straight hours. And maybe we were just a little drunk, but I was like, we should definitely have a microphone for this because these guys are hilarious, and this would be fun to share with the world.
Ben Bator: We did record that. I record everything. It was just on my phone, but the audio sucks. But I have a full recording of that.
Eric Jorgenson: There was supposed to be some disclosure about that then.
Ben Bator: Not in Michigan, I don't think.
Matt Ferrel: It was IG live. We went live. The only time I've ever gone live, at the lovely Sarpino’s Pizzeria. What a place.
Ben Bator: Yeah, that was a great night. And yeah, the invite for this was like, I mean, we took a long time to actually get this together and say yes because Matt and I both have a lot of- we have so much going on. I mean, we had to check the email. We have to read it. We had to call each other and say, did you get the email?
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, the logistics alone.
Ben Bator: Yeah, the logistics of answering the email is-
Matt Ferrel: When you asked do you want to get on a podcast with me, Ben and I were like, I'm going to have to think about that for at least three months.
Eric Jorgenson: Call your PR people, call your psychics.
Matt Ferrel: The lawyers. There's a lot of redlining. You have a pretty militant contract, I got to say. I think I sent over my boiler plate, you sent over yours. The attorneys figured it out. So, I'm glad we're here.
Eric Jorgenson: The clause about removing anything dumb that we say was really particularly punitive. But you got it in.
Ben Bator: This is law binding.
Eric Jorgenson: Something that I do not know about your guys' friendship is where it began. When did you guys meet each other?
Ben Bator: I mean, college is probably the official answer in terms of where we first crossed paths. But I believe the first real hangout was we were going to – what was the show, Matt? Was it-?
Matt Ferrel: Ryan Leslie.
Ben Bator: It was a Ryan Leslie show that was happening in New York City. And we went to the show, went out after, and the next morning Matt was sleeping on the couch in my apartment in New York. And ever since then, we've been friends. We shared a coconut water that morning and then traveled back to Detroit, and we got a coffee like three days later, and that was that.
Matt Ferrel: Technically, you're conflating two big nights. The first night we ever met- So the official answer from my perspective, and I can only give mine, not Ben's – we are two different people – is Ben's younger brother and I are the same age, Phil Bator, a beautiful man. And he and I met in college. And I think that was the introduction was at the Ryan Leslie show for some sort of tech conference where you were there for something, I was there just to see Phil and subsequently met you. The coconut water morning was in fact, and it was like some charity event where I bid on a Ndamukong Suh helmet, a signed helmet after about six to ten Beefeater gin and tonics. But things were going good. Everything felt pretty good. And so yeah, I did not win said helmet. But I did win a friendship. Some say I won the silent auction of a lifetime where I got to meet Ben and become his dear, dear friend.
Ben Bator: And forge an impenetrable friendship.
Matt Ferrel: Again, two different people.
Ben Bator: Two different nights. That's all coming back to me now.
Eric Jorgenson: Were these the Text From Last Nights?
Ben Bator: Yeah, this is probably in 2011/2012 is when this was all occurring.
Eric Jorgenson: You were like an absolute hero to my 19-year-old self when you started Texts From Last Night. I thought you were the coolest individual in the world for like a 12-month period.
Ben Bator: And it was a good 12 months.
Matt Ferrel: By the way, that was a past tense. I did hear past tense in there. I thought you were the coolest person, and then I met you.
Ben Bator: We had to do this together, Eric, we had to do this together?
Eric Jorgenson: It's going to be a little less professional, but a lot more fun. Which is what this podcast is all about. I feel like I will get the best worst version of both of you when you're together. And otherwise, it just would feel very, I don't know, incomplete. You two are a unity.
Ben Bator: Our families and partners would definitely agree with that. Definitely the worst versions of us. So yeah, so that was like early- so I think that was like year like two or three of the Texts From Last Night days when Matt and I met. And yeah, it was a pretty wild ride. I mean, it was a totally different world than compared to- now people just like tweet those things and put it on their Instagram stories. But back then it was like people really were worried about work finding out that they had fun on the weekends.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, we tell that story, like I don't know that I've ever heard the Texts From Last Night story because it became like a- it was a phenomenon and a company.
Ben Bator: It still is a company, which is crazy. But so yeah, it started, my friend Lauren Leto and I in college became friends and just kept in touch after school. And in 2008, obviously, it was really easy to get a job, so I just decided to easy, not going to get a job, going to go to law school instead. And Lauren was already a little bit ahead, and she was going through 1L at the time. And she really didn't want to go to law school. So, one day, I went and audited the class. I actually got called on, answered the question, which I had no business answering, and the professor's like, I've never even seen you before. Are you in this class? And I was like, well, today, yes. And then he let me slide I guess, I don't know. And then we went out to get a coffee. And she's like, yeah, you really don't want to do this. And I was like, what should we do instead? And we had kind of gone over a couple different ideas. And she had mentioned this idea around chronicling online anonymously the exploits and antics of our group of friends, all basically through like a big group chat. And then over a couple different meetings, it turned into Texts From Last Night. And we just launched it on BlogSpot, as easy as you could possibly do it, and then just started to market it around, but not very efficiently. I mean, we would go on like message boards at the time. I mean, this is like 2009, so it's like Facebook's kind of opening up, Twitter's around post-election, and everyone was starting to realize there was some utility there. There's no Instagram yet. It was this weird thing where people were still a little bit unsure of their parents and friends and family beyond just their classmates being on Facebook and connected with them in such a close way. And Texts From Last Night kind of was this weird outlet where you could really let it fly, also completely embarrass your friends. And the way we kept it pretty honest was we actually had people, mainly my brother and then Lauren and myself, who would read through thousands of submissions every day and then pick the 20 to 30 every day that we thought were really worthwhile of being up there. And it really blew up because it was viral in a really organic way of people sitting around in May of 2009, studying for finals, one person got distracted, and would burst out laughing because they saw a Text From Last Night on their browser when they were supposed to be studying, and then it went around the table. We literally watched the analytics show the hotspots of college campuses. And it was all based on- We cross referenced when is their finals week; it was like it starts this week, and it was literally as people were studying for finals. So, it blew up in Michigan State and then Michigan, and then had a second wave at Michigan because they got out like a week or two after us. But then it went around the country and then around the world. And it's pretty wild. It's changed a bunch since then. But it's still in some form around. And it's just a wild story I'm glad to be a part of.
Matt Ferrel: It's like honest to God, like the last moment of narrative storytelling or this lore of partying without any of the damage and danger of verifying or like vilifying the person that's having a good time via photo. You would see the area codes; you were like, wow, this area is going crazy. It almost feels like Studio 54 or this moment where you're like hearing about stories inside the party, but you weren't there, and you can't see it. Like that was sort of this cool moment where Texts From Last Night allowed each college campus to sort of- you read them and you'd be like, oh, my God, University of Michigan is having the best time ever, or you'd be like, it goes down to the SEC, and you're like, wow, Southern campuses are way crazier than Michigan State or something like that. And you didn't need to know who it was from. You didn't need to know the individual, you just needed to know the lore almost or this like legend of what you were doing in college or what your friends were doing post college and just having a good time. I think of it as a very interesting time period in all of our lives, that era.
Ben Bator: It was definitely different. It is funny to view it in the context. We've had- there were a couple of things around just 2009 and the early days of the new or like the last new internet, whatever, web 2.0, whatever people want to – are we still in 2.0? We haven't fully- we're not avatars. We're not fully Metaverse yet. So, I think we're still 2. Yeah, 2.5; 2.597 depending on whatever build. We round up. So yeah, it was this weird time where you could be anonymous, which brought a lot of good, definite ugly side too. And it's not necessarily like it was a better time. It was this peek into society in a way that we kind of don't have anymore because everyone has a lot more- like there's still, like I was saying, everyone just tweets these things now, but it's probably toned down or probably not completely as unfiltered as they would be if they were anonymous only by area code that they got from their first cell phone when they were in high school. So, wherever you lived when you were 16 is where it was tied to.
Eric Jorgenson: People were like, they're party personas now and those people tweet about it, but that's what was so- the anonymity of it and the voyeurism of, oh my- this is fucking either hilarious or these people are having a fucking great time or whatever it is, it was just so fun to just get little snippets. And you can almost get this like, from 200 characters, the same as Twitter, an amazing laugh or this sense that there's a whole huge, epic story behind it, but you're just reading this condensed, hilarious, highlight version of it. Yeah, it was and still is incredible. I think new versions of this would probably just be an Instagram account, but it's incredible to see it became a decent sized business and has for 10 years now.
Ben Bator: Yeah, and it's funny because now I think you can do a lot with a meme, and it's more about being relatable into one, whether it's remixing one bit of a TikTok or sharing one meme with your own kind of experience applied to it. Whereas this was very unique vantage points of one person's evening. And I think what's also funny about it is that it's not like this was just a message board where people were- I mean, some people probably were just texting the short code things they thought were funny, but the ones that we would actually get, we’d get like a three response little, I guess, paragraph. It's funny that, and kind of in a weird way and heartwarming, you could have the crazy thing ever, but you were sharing it with a close friend or with someone who cared. And I think that it's a little bit different from the pure performance you get now online, maybe not pure performance but closer to a performative act than just living.
Matt Ferrel: Well, and not to get too philosophical about it, but-
Ben Bator: No, Matt, we need to get philosophical.
Matt Ferrel: Let’s get in there. Let's dive in. Let's get our hands dirty. Yeah, you should lay down, this is going to be a session. It was, at least how I recall it, and maybe this is through rose-colored lenses, but it was a much more ephemeral thing where you'd submit it in the morning, or you would have somebody spending their night just living. And in my world, I see it from the music side, like concert world, like being in the moment, enjoying your night for your night’s sake or for the sake of entertainment, etc. Texts From Last Night during that time always felt like you would be having a good time. The next morning, you would literally read your texts from last night and submit them. And it wasn't like- I think once the brand recognition – Ben, I'd be interested to hear this from you – it's like once the brand got big enough, people would probably be like, oh my god, that's going on Texts From Last Night, like as it's happening. But the impetus of it was so much more just like you were in the moment, it was an ephemeral moment, like just fun. And I realize I'm starting to sound like an old person like yelling at clouds a little bit, like things are different now. But that was sort of the impetus of its success was like have a good time and then recall what the funny things that were the previous evening.
Eric Jorgenson: Or your phone was dead by 8pm anyway, so you just would find out in the morning what was sent to you the night before.
Ben Bator: Yeah, that's one part that everyone kind of forgets is that phones and web browsers sucked then. There wasn't a ton that was entertaining you other than- And everyone had like four minutes of data a month, and it was just like as soon as Facebook had photos, it was like that was gone. So, it's like you had to entertain yourself in this other way, which I think things like Texts From Last Night definitely did.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, that was amazing. Okay, Matt, what were you doing prior to sleeping on Ben's couch while we were mutually admiring, celebrating all of the degenerate nature of America's youth?
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, this is just sounding like I wasted away my 20s, which some could say I did. That is an arguable fact.
Eric Jorgenson: He was just trying to win Texts From Last Night.
Ben Bator: I was right there with you. It’s okay. We burned through a lot of good years.
Matt Ferrel: Early days in New York, I followed the route of graduating in 2010 and being like, oh, you have to be employed. It was pretty late in the graduation process of being like, oh, you go into college, and then, you get a job. But that second part, like the step one was go to college, and then step two was get a job, I was like late on that thing. And so, I was like I know I want to live in New York; my sister lived in New York. And so, I popped over to New York City and joined an ad agency. And that was probably the first year of my career is just like as a consumer insights and behavioral scientist at an ad agency. And then I got a phone call. And this is probably when Ben and I first met was when I was at the ad agency. But I got a phone call a year in to that world, and it was from Google. And I thankfully answered it and got the job and popped over to Google. And what was very funny at that time is that I think mistakenly, they were like, oh, this guy still lives in Michigan, despite the fact that I had moved to Manhattan. And they were like, hey, is it okay, though, if you move back to Michigan? Like they had no idea that I was from there, that I had family there, or whatever. And I was like, yeah, that sounds fine. Like, what team am I going to work on? And they're like, music, sports and entertainment. And I was like, okay, that sounds ideal. Like, that sounds like the right job for me. But why is it in Ann Arbor, Michigan? I'm in New York City, like looking at the NBA building. And they're like, hey, you got to go to Ann Arbor; that is the hub for live events, sports, and entertainment. And so that was sort of the first step in my career was to spend a bit of time on the sports and music side, which has pretty much projected everything since then for my world.
Eric Jorgenson: You might be the only person Google has ever called to give them a job. I'm still waiting to hear back on my Google internship application from like 15 years ago. I feel like any day now I might become qualified.
Matt Ferrel: Owen Wilson and Vince Vaughn ruined that for you. I mean, the longest ad.
Eric Jorgenson: The bar is so much higher now.
Matt Ferrel: The longest paid content ad of all time, The Internship. Now you just can't get in the door. It's really showed people what it was like, a peek behind the curtain.
Eric Jorgenson: So, was that experience full of like smoothies and geniuses and wonder and magic?
Matt Ferrel: Yes and no. Candidly, I think like with any big tech company- And so I joined Google in 2011. I think there was, who knows. Every single era of big tech, I feel like you're talking to people that are too late, and then you're talking to people that are too early, and you squarely are in your experience. And so, everybody is like, man, last year, there used to only be 200 people in this office. And Google was like flying everyone around the world because they were just making money, they'd never seen it before. And so, I came over there, and coming from an ad agency, I have to say, my first year and a half of work was like work, it was like an office. And then the opening day, I go into the office, they're like, here's where you put your laundry, and this is how we feed you. And I was like, oh, I'm at adult daycare. I'm at like- they're going to carry me, like I would get swaddled. I was like a 22-year-old that was in- I did not grocery shop for like the next three years. It was one of those weird things where you're like, oh, this is going to delay my ability to become an adult. It's going to probably stunt me. But I think everybody says this about every good place that they've ever worked. I still am very close – I'm no longer with Google – but I'm still very close with a lot of the people there. And I would say the hit rate of really, really impressive people is probably greater than other places that I've worked in the past. There’re always brilliant people within every office. But I would say the hit rate where you're like I'm going to go chat with this person about X, Y, and Z, you'd be like, oh, it's about 50%. You're like, about 50% of the people I talk to are like- and then you meet the people that you're like, oh, this is who Google's talking about. Then you meet the next level up, and you're like, oh, I'm not that good. You're like, oh, that makes sense; I'm not that smart. Like that person is insane, and I get why I'm not there.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, you're going to be president.
Matt Ferrel: I mean, there are people that were like everything was stuffed into the genetic pool at that point. They were like, you're going to be smart, beautiful, very accomplished, unbelievably skilled at anything you do. And you're like, damn, you got it, man.
Eric Jorgenson: I was under the impression that we only got so many like stat points, and we just had to allocate them. I didn't know that there were people with fully maxed out stat bars in life. A disappointing revelation.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, my NBA- player. Yeah, it’s the left, right, A, B, B, A; it's that cheat code that right before you were born, somebody hit it on the Sega Genesis, and you're ready to go. Again, old. We're going to do old jokes here, so if anyone's young-
Ben Bator: Only old jokes. If you identify as young, not for you. A lot of podcasts out there, not this one.
Eric Jorgenson: Why'd you leave your adult daycare? It'd be nice to get swaddled. I don't know where else that happens.
Matt Ferrel: My attorney father had said the same thing. He was like, what are you doing? So, I had been about six and a half years at Google. I left the entertainment team after about three years. I got asked to join a program there called the APMNs, which is an internal marketing organization, which still exists. I think it's a little bit stripped down since COVID. But it was like top 25 marketers in the company globally, and top- I don't know how they decided that because I hadn't really been doing much marketing. But we came in as a cohort for 25 people globally, and you would do rotational programs, etc. And I realized, yeah, I know how to sell AdWords, and I know how to sell ads, but I'm interested in actually learning how to build a product and market it. So, I need to leave the sales team; I need to go into the marketing team. And that was great. And my rotational program was like two and a half years. They sent me to Japan and Jakarta, and I got to travel to South America with a company. It was unbelievable. And then I was like, okay, I think I'm good. And it wasn't like an easy decision. I mean, the swaddling is a real thing. And every year, it gets voted the number one place to work in the world, and you're like I'm just not satisfied here, and it's the number one place to work in the world, and there's clearly something wrong with me because I'm like, yeah, I just don't get it. But I got an offer to move out to the West Coast and run digital marketing for the company called AEG Presents, which is the second largest concert promoter in the world behind Live Nation. A former client of mine at Interscope became the chief digital officer, and I got a phone call to come over there. So that for me was like I had been satellite, like I had been in the orbit of the music industry and the entertainment industry, but I was like, all right, I refer to it as my Icarus moment, candidly. I was like, oh, it's good to be in the orbit, we can talk about AEG and all of the fun and amazing Coachella experiences that I was able to have, but it was my Icarus moment. I think I flew too close to the entertainment sun for at least my liking.
Eric Jorgenson: I was going to say, that was a lot of words to say I worked for Coachella, which is a thing that people would have understood.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, well, it's more than that, Eric. It's not just-
Ben Bator: How many events a day did AEG have when you were- like wasn’t it just some crazy-
Matt Ferrel: 14,000. I think was like 12,000 to 14,000. And not a day, annually. But that was just domestically. We had 18 regional offices. During my time, we bought Bowery Presents on the East Coast. We had Goldenvoice on the West Coast. So, then the next- I mean, Coachella, certainly, that's the-
Ben Bator: When you consider like 12,000 events, and there's like-
Eric Jorgenson: 12,000 events a year?
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, I mean, it's crazy.
Eric Jorgenson: That is 33 events a day.
Matt Ferrel: That's easy. I could imagine- So, let's think about New York, where I live, the Bowery Presents office, which represents the entire eastern seaboard now, but at that point, it had Webster Hall, Williamsburg Hall of Music, Terminal 5, Bowery Ballroom, there's probably six more venues that they were booking. And that's every single day, and that's one city. That's New York. So, then you have like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, really, really great music, Las Vegas. We did residencies for Cher. It became a really interesting agency model in a way where you have 12,000 things that you're doing or shows that you're doing every year. Each artist is an entirely unique brand, and you're trying to build a marketing strategy and a marketing plan that like fits an Elton John as well as it does a Phoebe Bridgers. And that was sort of a really fun experience to be like what does that look like?
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, that seems incredible. That’s a dream job.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, I mean, in some ways yes and in some ways no.
Ben Bator: Like all dreams.
Eric Jorgenson: Why was it Icarus-y?
Matt Ferrel: The music industry is really tough. I mean, it's really good when people are buying tickets. And when people are not buying tickets, it is you have 12,000 events where people are calling and being like, hey, the events not sold out. As an example, so I'm consulting now, and I'm actually going back into the ticketing world, the events world, with my next job. But I'm consulting with a content magazine Brooklyn Magazine, appropriately named, headquartered in Brooklyn, New York, a wonderful borough, and they're putting on a music festival this weekend. And it's got Car Seat Headrest, it's got DJ Premier from Gang Starr, and it's a fun festival, etc. The magazine does not do music festivals. It's their first foray into promoting an event. And it's very difficult. There's a lot of stress. Tickets are moving great one day. They're not moving the great the next day. The band is calling you – how are we doing in terms of sales? You're juggling the idea of the human psyche where you're like, I think tickets aren't moving because of this, or I think tickets are moving because of that. And then you have to deal with the idea that there's like, and I'm not saying this about any of the artists that are performing, but there are certain artists that just put out really bad music at the time that they launch tour. And you're like- then, they're like, well, I normally play arenas, why am I not selling arenas now? And you can't say to them because your music sucks, like this album sucks. But oftentimes, people just are like, oh, I don't like that album that much or that's just not the music I want to hear live. And it's a real experience in terms of brand management that you have to constantly juggle. And if you're doing it at the scale at which they are, and there's some wonderful people at that business, it can be particularly stressful. I think that was the thing that my Icarus moment was – the amount of stress that comes in on that I did not know how to manage. And that's just an honest statement about how I just could not deal with that amount of unknown and being able to try and rationalize it. Like I just couldn't deal with it.
Eric Jorgenson: It is a crazy- I mean, tolerance of ambiguity is incredibly difficult. And it's something that you don't really know if you have until you kind of are in a startup or something like this, which events I feel like are probably equally- it is almost a higher cadence of going through that uncertainty like high stress roller coaster, but you see really smart, capable people who are just like I can handle a lot, but the level of ambiguity here is just uncomfortable for me all the time, and I can't live my life and I want out, which I totally get.
Matt Ferrel: It was a combination of that and the combination of I'd done my job. This is sort of like I'm a task-oriented person. And I was like, as I mentioned, there's a bunch of different regional offices, the focus for me was I was all about automation. I was all about your term, leverage. Let's focus on the idea of being able to scale and grow. And so, I centralized a marketing organization of 18 different offices into one centralized team and built that out, built out the technology and the things to support it and was done. And the next job for the next year. I mean, I think this is probably what Ben loves about agency work to a certain extent I can assume, is you finish the task, you get to focus on the problem at hand, and solve it. And then you move on to something new, or you can maybe go incremental on it. But I had done what I came there to do. I was stressed out. I had successfully completed and planted my flag on the moon, and was like, all right, I think I'm good. The next year in my mind was like, oh, we're just going to twist knobs like 5% or 1% this way. And I'm like, that's not that interesting to me. And really, I'd rather be on the East Coast with friends and family. Like that was as analog of a decision as it needed to be.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. Is that what agency life is like, Ben?
Ben Bator: I mean, ambiguity is definitely a big part of it. I mean, I don't know which part. Our experience is obviously a little bit different, just from the fact that- so Lafayette American, the agency that I co-founded with partners in 2018, it was like a true startup. So, we got to kind of do it from the ground up. We weren't really inheriting too many, other than the people who bring their own ways of doing things, we didn't really inherit any institutional bad habits. So, we kind of got to shed a lot of the things that didn't serve us and kind of make it our own. But even that is like an ambiguous process. So it's like, what do you want it to be? What do you want to be when you grow up? And what's your- what is the mission? And is the mission still the mission at 50 people as it was when it was 8 people around the kitchen table? So yeah, there's a lot of ambiguity. But that's part of what I love. So like my entire life has been- going to law school probably, as my lawyer dad pointed out, would have been probably not a good decision for me in the long term just because I kind of am better at taking an ambiguous kind of thing and making it a little slightly more real, or at least trying to focus on how to make something tangible out of mostly thin air, whether it's text messages or creative ideas, and it's kind of been the thing that I've, by the accident of personality and preference, become pretty good at, I guess.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, I mean, the work you guys do at Lafayette American is gorgeous. I'm just skimming the website. And oh, my God, you work for Milk Bar.
Ben Bator: Yeah, we did some Milk Bar stuff. It is super good. The only bad thing about that assignment was that the mail carrier – I'm not joking about this – stole the Milk Bar care package that was sent to us from Milk Bar. Like, we have no other way of explaining. It's the only time I've ever just like asked for where a package was, and instead of getting the random, oh, we’ll check into it, they just said no, we don't have that package, it doesn't exist. And we're like, no, no, I have a tracking number. And they're like, no, no you don’t.
Eric Jorgenson: It was stolen by me.
Matt Ferrel: In late 2019, when I left AEG, I did a short stint at the USPS. And that was in fact- Yeah, a very short stint, and deeply enjoyed their work at Milk Bar. And I think that they've done an unbelievable thing there. The corn cookies are delicious. Our dear friend, Christina Tosi, thanks for the wonderful snacks that you create.
Eric Jorgenson: And thanks to Ben for creating the interception of the opportunity.
Ben Bator: Yeah, that was a pretty- it's funny because then we'd send them as care packages or as gifts to other clients or friends or collaborators. And they all got theirs. So, I just feel like ours was particularly heavy and robust and someone took it. But no, in all seriousness, thank you. We've been- It is heartbreaking. We've had a really- that was actually a pretty early project for us, which was awesome and it kind of felt like a huge vote of confidence. And it was actually a mutual friend, Robbie Salter, who had a really great company that was all about helping agencies connect with product-based work, and at the time, we were like 10 or 12 people working out of our office in Detroit and Robbie called me and was like, do you guys know Milk Bar? I'm like, yeah, we know Milk Bar. But it accidentally kind of tapped into this thing that we've been kind of cultivating, which is like we all came together to create Lafayette American. Toby, my partner, is from San Francisco. He from like DC, but most of his life was spent in San Francisco and then Detroit later on. And then a handful of the partners are from the east and west coast. We all ended up in Michigan, and a lot of them were selling F150s at Team Detroit and GTV for Ford. And so, they kind of got this unique perspective on what it means to kind of take an industry that is primarily thinking about creating assets and creative for the coasts, but instead really focusing on what resonates in- making Middle America not a dirty word or a dirty phrase, or a less than phrase. Like just that there's a ton of people who, just by the fact that a lot of agencies are a little bit biased. One had a TikTok this week that was all about people in the Midwest shouldn't get this, this message isn't for you. And it's like, why can't it be? Why can't you sell to people between two cities on the coasts? Anyway, long story short, Milk Bar came to us, and they were like, yeah, we want to actually do nationwide shipping; we want to ship beyond just the cities where we operate. And part of why we won that pitch was just because of that fact that we know that there's a whole world between where Matt lives and Matt used to live.
Matt Ferrel: Shots fired. Shots fired.
Ben Bator: No shame. Like, we'll talk to the coast too. It's honestly in some ways easier. Like, it's just-
Matt Ferrel: It's amazing failure for a lot of businesses, I feel like, to be like all the big clients are here in here, like LA and New York, San Francisco and New York. And you're like, there are so many unbelievable businesses. I mean, Eric, you are in “Middle America” right now, and the people you've had on this podcast, the majority of them don't, in fact, live in New York or LA, like the conversations I've heard in the past, and they've built unbelievably successful businesses, have an unbelievable user base or customer base, and loyal following, and a really strong brand. And I think people on the coasts, maybe less so now, but I think pre-pandemic probably would have scoffed at the concept of turning a lens towards the idea of a very large swath of people that live in the United States. It's sort of like this very- I mean, my coffee company that I'm an investor in, that's like our whole focus, the idea of focusing on Michigan. That is the idea that you don't need to have a blue bottle in San Francisco or Los Angeles or New York. You can have really good coffee that doesn't exist in the like coffee flood that is New York, San Francisco, and LA where they have like 14 roasters per neighborhood and the small coffee shop, and somehow, they all still pay rent. It makes no sense. But there's space for businesses to exist between the coasts.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, there's like, I don't know if it's- there's probably good reasons for that just being overrepresented because the media hubs are in New York and LA. And so that is just like almost path of least resistance of what gets talked about in national publications. It could also be like I think there's a lot to the Midwestern humility that like unless you really got to know somebody, you wouldn't know how big or good or successful their company is because they're not driving a Lamborghini, they're still driving a pickup truck, and not posting about that shit on Twitter. So, it is a joy of my life to tell some more of those stories or help share them in a Midwestern way. Because you're right, for every- there's only one New York but there's like 20 cities like Kansas City and Chicago and Detroit and all the people who are influenced by those cultural hubs and all of the great things that come out of all of them. Like it's a big, big country and a lot of opportunity.
Matt Ferrel: I thought you for sure were going to say, it's the joy of my life to pull up on people in a Lamborghini and stunt on them in Kansas City. I thought that's where that was going to go. Not the like sweet part. It was like you didn't expect it, but I am going to pull up in a Countach.
Eric Jorgenson: If I could fit in a Lamborghini, I would.
Matt Ferrel: Oh, you are tall. You're tall.
Eric Jorgenson: I need a convertible I think and like goggles.
Matt Ferrel: All right, we'll compromise on a sunroof and one of those face shields, a COVID face shield.
Ben Bator: I'm going to start looking for best hyper car for tall guys after this. It's actually an oversight of most exotic car manufacturers. Most of their clientele, I think it's wildly reported to be short guys. I don't know if that has any-
Eric Jorgenson: Tiny little Italians like the size of one of my legs. They're just titchy little guys. And I understand that they want to build light cars. And Shack bought like this purple, I think it was a Lamborghini, I don't know, when he was on the Lakers, he had to get it lengthened so that he could fit in it. It was like this half limousine looking Lamborghini. It was beautiful.
Matt Ferrel: I like the idea that this is the start, unless I've missed content the past, of Eric v. Italians, the feud of Eric and then just Italian guys. It's like there's some feud. We struck a nerve there where anyone driving a Ferrari or a Lamborghini is like, no, you're the size of my leg.
Eric Jorgenson: Would you rather fight one enormous Icelandic man or 100 tiny Italians?
Matt Ferrel: This isn't even a hypothetical. This is actually what the feud is.
Ben Bator: This is actually that. We have one to two weeks to prepare for this before this goes live, Matt, and then we have to figure it out. Maybe we might have to- Can we each pick the same one? Or would that be teaming up?
Matt Ferrel: Not before the wedding. We can't fight Eric before the wedding.
Ben Bator: No, no, not Eric.
Matt Ferrel: He is the giant Icelandic man.
Eric Jorgenson: I'm just posing the hypothetical. You guys can do whatever you want.
Matt Ferrel: Oh, I thought this was part of getting this released is we had to do that. Damn it.
Eric Jorgenson: No, it's what's the like- It's would you rather fight a horse sized duck or a hundred duck sized horses? Yeah, that's the meme I was going for. Neither of which is a great idea.
Matt Ferrel: Every time it gets brought up, the horse sized duck is just like truly the funniest thing I could ever imagine.
Eric Jorgenson: A stampede of tiny horses is pretty cute. Like Chihuahua sized horses, just like with flowing little manes. I could just punt those one after the other though. That’s no problem.
Ben Bator: I have a bigger problem with hurting small things than running or like attacking a big thing.
Eric Jorgenson: Even though it’s a really cute enormous duck. Ducks might not be that cute when they're giant. Maybe they're only cute because they are small scale.
Matt Ferrel: They’ve got teeth. I've been bitten by duck. That's for a different podcast. That's for a different podcast. I was doing something I should not have been doing.
Ben Bator: -Google and I got this call from this duck, and it was just like, do you like concerts buddy? And I said sure.
Eric Jorgenson: On the topic of cars, you guys are both huge car guys. I did not mean to slight you if either of you own a Ferrari or Lamborghini and I want you to flex on whoever you want.
Matt Ferrel: Thank you for thinking of me that way. Thank you. I appreciate it. Ben and I both thank you for thinking that we could have those.
Eric Jorgenson: I did. I have long admired your co-pet project Mille Mitten, Mille, it is like a French word; I don’t know who to say it. Okay, great.
Ben Bator: Italians – Mille Miglia. It is on right not. If you want to fight a hundred, literally a hundred Italian guys in Ferraris, they're now currently driving from Russia to Rome and back.
Matt Ferrel: Eric, do I have an opportunity for you.
Eric Jorgenson: I feel like I'll butcher Mille Mitten if I attempt to explain it.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, we can do this. Yeah, I mean, so Mille Miglia is a race, the historical race, that Mille Mitten is roughly based on. And by roughly, we mean it's a slant rhyme of the name and follows a similar format with the same sort of concept, which is Mille Mitten is a three-day thousand mile road trip around the state of Michigan. The concept is to bring people from in the state, outside of the state, people that we find interesting, car enthusiast or otherwise, and showcase the state that both Ben and I are from and Ben currently still lives in. But we think it's an unbelievable state that I think gets underrepresented, and maybe people aren't seeing the parts of it and the various different types of scenery, the various different types of towns, the people that it has to offer, and showcase those restaurants, showcase those sites, showcase those towns that are really unbelievable. And so yeah, Ben and I started this sort of 2012, I think is what it was. I took a friend around the state in three days. Ben and I met up at my family cottage up in Walloon. And we kind of looked at each other and said, we should do this with friends. It was the perfect weekend road trip. It was the perfect experience around exploring a state and spending three days with friends. And we said this is something that can scale. This is something that can grow. And I think it's something that we wanted to bring to people that may not necessarily have the opportunity or have even considered the idea of touring a state.
Ben Bator: This was also one of those rare things that we didn't really care if people stole the idea because we kind of stole the idea from or borrowed the idea from other things. I think one of the main hypotheses, like the main hypothesis for me was that all of the articles about the next generation not caring about driving or cars was like completely off the mark. Actually, I just found out that that stat that most kids or most teenagers or young adults would rather give up their car than their phone; they'd rather have a car than their phone. But the way the question is actually phrased, it's if you had to pick either having a car or a phone for the rest of your life, what would you do? And everyone was just like, well, I'd have to have- it was phrased in such a crazy way and it's such a small sample size, and it was just completely given way too much attention and was blown out of proportion. So once again, sorry, to the editor, we're getting off track. But the idea was that that wasn't true, even before we knew that, and that people actually did want to go out and have these experiences particularly around cars and that a car is so much more than a computing device, and America and just the world is in a lot of ways completely uniquely explored by a car, and we just wanted to celebrate that. And so, we ran it for six years. We actually- one of the great things about living in Michigan was we made like three phone calls in inviting people to the trip, they were like, do you want us to sponsor that? And we're like, you mean you as in like GM, who you're like a junior account manager for like Buick? And they’d just be like, yeah, I could probably get you guys five or six cars. And so, we had this five-year relationship with General Motors where every year we were introducing people from all over the country to a new line of cars that were coming out. We actually ended up doing a launch of a special edition of the Buick Cascada, a beautiful, hardtop convertible that no longer exists, but not because of anything we did.
Matt Ferrel: No, it really is sort of this interesting concept. I think Ben and I come to cars probably from slightly different angles, where there's a lot of similarities in how we approach the car, but I think the idea of exploration is certainly a big part of it. I think, Ben probably, he’s wearing a racing shirt right now, he has a much longer love of motorsport than I do. It's been something that while Mille Mitten was happening, I came to, and now you see F1 in the state that's like the fastest growing sport in the country. But mine, I just vividly remember turning 16 and getting on like I-94, Interstate 94, and driving like 10 miles away from my house and seeing a sign that said “To Chicago” and being like, oh my god, you can go to Chicago. In a car. I think it was because I had lived in a car dependent suburb my entire life that the idea that now I was in control of the wheel, like literally anything was available to me, as long as I could keep the car on the road and like have- and the car in a lot of ways represented freedom. Like I could just go anywhere. I could explore anywhere. It was like the radius of opportunity had expanded so much larger than what was formerly on my 15 year and the 11 month experience. Like I now had- the map of the video game had revealed itself. And I was willing to explore. And so, I mean, not to say that we had ideas of grandeur, I mean, as Ben said, we did it for six years. We probably had 200 plus people come on the trip, some returns, some repeats, some crowd favorites that came back every year, but a lot of people that were from out of state, a lot of people that were in state and truly had never explored their own backyard. I think that we were trying to instill, in some ways, the idea of exploration and wonder, and Michigan was the natural jump off point for us because we knew Michigan. Like Ben and I would go drive. There'd be like weekends where Ben would call me when I was living in Detroit, and we'd be like, hey, so let's go up to Northern Michigan for the night, come back down, then like go up to the UP the next day and then come back down. We were like commuting across an entire state just because we loved the idea of driving that much. And that was a really cool opportunity for us to explore that and scratch that itch.
Ben Bator: My car flex is in like 2012, I had a 911. I had a problem with it and brought it into the shop. And they said, hey, let us know after like a thousand miles, if it happens again or if it gets any worse. And I was like cool. And I showed back up two days later, I was like, yeah, I think I have the problem again. They were just like, you drove a thousand miles? And I was like, yeah, it's a whole- I went and just checked out a few places up north, and it was beautiful. You want to see pictures? And I'm like showing them pictures. And it's like they lived here their entire lives, too, and hadn't been to the places that I was showing them, and it was just like normal cities. It's just amazing what- it's amazing what each state- and it's true, honestly, from like Indiana- Ohio is more beautiful than people realize, you know what I mean? Pennsylvania is beautiful. There's so much even between, I've driven up and down the East Coast a handful of times, and I'm always kind of blown away by everything that's really not that far from major metro areas. And you just can't really access it unless you have a car. But it becomes more fun when you have friends doing it in their cars. And you get out and you take pictures and you stop and you do- It's just something that I think we will always continue to do in some form. And while our list of people, like the people who come on ours, it's kind of now just a smaller group of friends, if you email us and want to go around Michigan, we'll send you the route.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, and Michigan is extremely, extremely beautiful. Northern Michigan is a well kept secret and great roads. And yeah, there's something I think when the Great American Road Trip is a thing, and it's even more a thing in Michigan. When we grew up, that was family vacations. It was like everybody pile in and drive 12 hours.
Ben Bator: Yeah. And it's funny, over COVID, that whole thing blew up again. So everyone realized- National Parks had record attendance. I think it's going to go the other way where everyone already, according to Instagram, is already back in Europe and doing three week how do you afford this European vacations. But I think it's always going to kind of swing back to what's in the backyard, what's closer, what's not one of three or four hot cities in America or globally. And there's always some kind of give and take with those two areas. I also think it's going to be really interesting to see what happens just from like- I mean, as Matt kind of alluded to, I'm hopelessly into cars. And I think there's two things that are really interesting that are going to happen in terms of road trips and just in general. One is you saw this spike of people who've been buying kind of like future collectibles or current collectibles of cars that were built in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s, that are masterpieces in their own to whoever, in the eye of the beholder or whatever. And people who are now fixing those, using those more often is kind of the age of, whatever side of the gasoline debate you're on, it seems like that's kind of not days are numbered, but days like this with gasoline, even though it's expensive, available every like half mile is probably not going to be the case in 20 years. But then also you have this emergence of EVs and all the work that's going into making this charging network better and better, and kind of catching up to and in some ways thinking around different solutions from what Tesla had. And I think that the types of road trips and the types of trips that you'll be able to take by car in the really near future are going to change for, I think, the better, and it's going to be really interesting to watch how that evolves. So, yeah, if there's another evolution of what Mille becomes, I think that's definitely something that Matt and I are going to end up exploring. But I think just enjoying everything that is currently out there while it's there for the taking is something we plan on doing and encourage everybody to do the same really. I didn't plan that. I just thought that was kind of a thing that needed to be said.
Matt Ferrel: It felt good.
Ben Bator: The National Driving Association owes me a check. I don't know if that exists.
Matt Ferrel: You just like hit every like of the big three slogans, you are like open roads. And at the end, it was like can we cut in for our partners at Ford Motor Company, and then for our good friends at Buick, Alexa, integrated now, and Nissan, find your roads.
Ben Bator: I think we're done. I think we did- the audio is still good? We're out.
Matt Ferrel: Eric, who's your automotive sponsor? I'll cut it right now. I'll do it live.
Eric Jorgenson: I would really like to be sponsored by the electric Hummer. I have just a strained 8-year-old boner for-
Matt Ferrel: You are a big fan of the crab walk.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, for the crab walk. I mean, if you put like the immigrant song, if your car has like a trailer with Led Zeppelin in the background, I probably want it. And if it goes sideways and up and down and there's lightning behind it, I definitely want it.
Ben Bator: Did you want the original Hummer? Were you a Hummer fan in the day?
Eric Jorgenson: Like the original H1 I kind of- I always thought it'd be cool to restore military surplus Humvee and do like matte black jacket. No love for H2s or 3s but I really liked the originals.
Ben Bator: There's a company in Michigan called Mil Spec Automotive that does full blown restorations on both military and civilian Hummers, but they make them into just like bomb proof- not - either a rocket ship or just like a super solid luxury experience. It's nuts.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, I just pulled up the website and this place looks bonkers.
Matt Ferrel: I like that Ben, you kind of made sure that you didn't say anything that was like not technically correct. You're like, they make like a bomb proof – not bomb proof. You were like do not go over a bomb. But they are good.
Ben Bator: I love that us disclaiming that like a military Humvee can’t go over bombs, which it turns out is true.
Eric Jorgenson: Oh, I mean, starting at 330k.
Ben Bator: So instead of the stretch McLaren that you were going to get anyway, Eric, it's-
Matt Ferrel: Ask for the deposit back.
Ben Bator: And the best part of it is you valet it and there's no one else with one.
Eric Jorgenson: That's true. This is sick, though. I mean, there's, yeah, look at these plush dashboard, everything. This thing's amazing.
Ben Bator: Quilted leather and its nuts. I think that’s a big thing too. A lot of people are realizing that their car, more than ever, is their avatar if you live in a city that needs one. And I think that the fact that a lot of people over the pandemic didn't have to commute every day and got to choose a more interesting day to day car because they were only going down the street to like the grocery store, you kind of lose a lot of the appliance-y the cars a little more quickly.
Matt Ferrel: It was cars and furniture. It was like cars and furniture. More people got into cars and more people got into design than ever. Like every single person now knows every single oh, like some design reference from B&B Italia 1970s Italian design and you're like you bought like an Ikea POANG chair like two years ago, and now you have like a Tobias Scarpa full living room. You're like what the hell just happened in the course of a pandemic where everyone went to like art school or started restoring a car. And you're like, all right, these are the two things I spend my time in, my car and my house. And so that's all I need to know.
Ben Bator: And it just depends on which TikTok you forwarded to a friend first. And then you get into that hole based on that algorithm, and you're like, oh, my God, now I've learned everything about B&B Italia from-
Matt Ferrel: Still no TikTok. Old head. Full disclosure, I'm still holding off. And I'm just trying to- as a marketing person, that's not something- We’ll cut that. We will cut that in post. But I'm holding out. I'm holding out on getting into the TikTok wormhole of content.
Eric Jorgenson: It's the American thing to do. It feels patriotic to not download TikTok. Like, I don't know what China's doing with it, but it's not helping us.
Ben Bator: It can’t be helping them. The stuff I'm watching can't be helping them. There's nothing they're learning from me that's that important, I promise you.
Matt Ferrel: They're like damn, this guy is messed up. We are not going to go over to Ben's house. Like, he's watching- we can't get a hold on him. There's not a person on earth that's like this man. No one watches this type of content in rapid succession. That's what you really want to do. You want to break a content recommendation engine for a tech company because you're such a confusing human in terms of the content that you consume that the company is just like, we don't know. Like, here's a picture of a dog.
Ben Bator: This is a thing that I have been thinking about a lot lately. And it's what is the path of least resistance to change your algorithm to something that you're more interested in. Like, say you want to get into fly fishing, but I want to turn the internet into- I want to make the internet actually work for me again. What do I have to do – and Matt, I say fly fishing because I know you've dabbled – what stores do I have to go to and add something to my cart, but then leave so it starts to chase me around. And then like they start selling that data to someone else, and they're like, hey, do you like fly fishing, do you want to get in this email list? Like an email newsletter to sign up to, a podcast to listen to, a couple of YouTube videos to watch, and three things to Google and one thing to almost buy. What's the sweet spot of that that will make the internet go to work for me to make a hobby happen.
Matt Ferrel: And Eric, just a quick context setting: Ben and I are openly pro take as much of my data as possible so that you serve me the best information about me.
Ben Bator: Both advertisers. We should have put a big- I just have like a sign above me that's just like everything's for sale.
Matt Ferrel: We're pro Facebook Pixel being good again. And no, there is a part of me that is like I do believe in the potential myth but also the like promised land of there is an ability to recommend those things at a better rate or- and also, I no longer am interested in this, how do I remove this from my content stream?
Ben Bator: I bought it; I bought the thing. I don’t need it anymore.
Matt Ferrel: I am a Golden State Warriors fan, sports guy. And they won the national championship yesterday. That is giving some people who are going to listen to this in a couple of weeks a little bit of context of when we're filming this.
Ben Bator: And it gives them context of when Matt became a Golden State Warriors fan: Yesterday.
Matt Ferrel: This morning. Because I was at dinner, and I opened my phone and I was like, oh, they won, oh, Drake has an album. But they're done, so I don't need- there's no more game tape that I need to watch. It has reached its point of like the time for me to watch basketball is now over, at least in terms of that setting. And this is maybe a bad example because people like to watch it going into the forefront. But if there's a season for something, like I don't need to watch ski content in the summer. I'm not watching skiing content in the summer. There should be some algorithmic understanding of, hey, you're leading up to this hobby’s season, hey, you're leading up to this sort of like- there's something new coming out around the thing that you're fascinated by, and is there the ability to demonstrate or launch that information into the consumer facing-
Eric Jorgenson: I kind of trust you guys as the advertisers to know that. Like, you guys ramp up ski stuff in the fall, and I don't know, you just spend your budget when the thing exists.
Ben Bator: Yeah. And that's totally true in terms of like an ad, but I think it's more like the thing that I was talking to a friend about everybody right now is really interested in taking on TikTok. And I think that the thing that TikTok does so well, probably too well and probably knows some things about me that I don't want to know about myself, is just how the algorithm is able to kind of think a couple of steps ahead or at least rapidly test what you might like. And it's like, as advertisers, we're always thinking, okay, people are probably going to start thinking about back to school in the beginning to end of July – sorry, kids – suddenly you start getting that, priming the pump and getting that out there. But in terms of content that you're getting served or just what my explore page on Instagram says, it's like I want to be able to- and to some extent, these tools do exist, but I always felt this weird, when the new iOS came out, and everyone turned off their tracking across apps, and then all of a sudden, it was like, why am I getting belly fat ads again? Why am I getting- not to pick on belly fat ads. You should see my belly. But why are we getting these ads that are kind of like really generic? Or ads that you get in like daytime TV that have no, nothing that would even remotely be close to what I'm interested in. And I think the ad experience is something that can actually add a lot to a platform. And I don't think that- I think that tracking and selling data became just way too messy. And people just kind of lost sight about what it can actually do for an experience, and it'll actually end up, in the long run, with the right signals, like it becomes better. And with the right people thinking about them in the right way, it becomes better. But I think it's just-
Matt Ferrel: I guess I'm not talking about ads. I'm almost talking about the lack of the experience of organic content for the sake of organic content.
Ben Bator: That's what I was thinking about first.
Matt Ferrel: For me, it's like, if I'm posting something because I like fly fishing, and then it “becomes viral” or something like that, the actual virality of that is going to be to an audience that already knows about the thing that I'm posting about fly fishing, and there's no exposure to somebody that's like I'm interested in maybe learning, but this is not what my timeline is focused towards, like I'm still going to get pizza slice reviews, and I'm still going to get a dog rolling around on the ground. And you're like, I want to figure out how to retrain my organic content algorithm. And it's very, very complicated because there are people and there are tribes and there still is this community-based situation, but it becomes like the walls become higher, and it becomes much more complicated to start getting into the flow of interesting organic content stumbling across your timeline.
Eric Jorgenson: This is why I like Twitter because at least the original- I use the reverse chronological twitter feed, not the algorithm, because they still let you do that, and then at least I see everything from the people that I follow. And so, it's like I follow this guy for stock tips, but also, he's a fly fisher, and so sometimes on the weekends, he tweets about fly fishing and so now I accidentally know some shit about fly fishing, and maybe I'm interested in learning more actually, even though I never really thought about it before. So, there's still some serendipity at least within the people, for me, on Twitter. But it's definitely I feel like they're trying to push it out.
Ben Bator: Yeah. I think it's a huge opportunity. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why TikTok is doing so well is because, I mean, it's what you just explained, Matt, is what happens on TikTok. It's like they know that there's like a 9% chance you might like something, like I've never watched a fly fishing video, but your friend that's in your contacts put this up, maybe you want to see that or maybe you want to see one that's a funny version of that or an impressive version of that. Not to say that yours aren't funny or impressive, but it's like, what if-
Matt Ferrel: My fly-fishing TikTok is insane. Like and subscribe, guys. Every week, I post a sick casting video.
Ben Bator: But yeah, I just want to be able to change my algorithm so I can change my life already. You know what I’m saying?
Eric Jorgenson: I do too. That’s why I want Elon Musk to buy Twitter so that he’ll open source the algorithm or let us change algorithm options or something like that. I feel like that'd be cool. I don't know if that'll actually happen.
Ben Bator: Who do you want to be CEO if Elon buys Twitter? Or do you want Elon to run Twitter?
Eric Jorgenson: I don't know that he would be the CEO. I don't know, maybe he would for a minute. I feel like who is CEO is a little less important than like if Elon sets a new tone of values, but I also think a lot of Twitter will turn over in that case. I'm not sure how the existing team is going to take to hey, we are instilling a whole new value system on this platform. That feels like it'd be tough. And Twitter, the staff at Twitter I think are incredibly left leaning or whatever, which it'll be interesting to see it play out. I don't actually know if he's going to buy it at all. But do you have somebody that you're like I want that person in charge?
Ben Bator: No, it's just more of my thing about I remember how upset everyone was that Jack Dorsey had two jobs. And they're like, we need this guy out of there. And then Elon comes in, he's like, what if I have 15 companies, and now I want Twitter too?
Matt Ferrel: Are you doing an Elon impression?
Ben Bator: A little bit. And everyone was just like, Elon, daddy, yes, buy us. I think that like the buying Twitter, it's one of those things like dogs chasing a car. It's like what happens when you catch the car? It's fun to watch.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, I really like, having worked in the tech space and the ad sales space, eons ago, but it is one of those companies that didn't scale but just followed the same model that Facebook and Google did, but that wasn't in fact what that company was. And so, there is this level of monetization that they've clearly undershot. Like, it's entirely brand building. There’re no real performance aspects to it. And I don't think that like my hypothesis and all the thinking that I've done about him joining is it's not in fact going to be an ad sales team. There's going to be the data that is structured in the Twitter world that is going to be an open API of content for businesses, and you can license the content and there'll be a licensing fee. He'll turn it into a software business, it won't be an ad sales business. And Twitter will now just become a place where people are able to index information or things that are going on on the platform and be able to access that information in real time to make data decisions. But I can't see it becoming an ad sales promoted tweets platform, if that's what he chose to do to buy it. I think if he doesn't buy it, it'll continue to operate as it currently does, and I don't think they'll restructure. But if he buys it, what he does is build software, that's Pay Pal, it'll be processing fees, it'll be around the idea of a much more b2b experience and less of a consumer app. That's my concept of it.
Ben Bator: And like paywalls and that kind of stuff. I mean, I don't think those are necessarily bad things, either. I think that some of this change is probably good there. I think, I read something, I can't remember; I'm sorry I can't give you credit because I was told I have to get out of all my other browser tabs. But there was someone this morning that just casted doubt around part of the thing that was mentioned was wanting a billion users, and it's like I just don't know if a billion people care about the written word or reading frankly. Not to be get off my lawn, it's like I just think that games and visuals and kind of lower friction communication is always going to win out. And you even really can't just like back into the audio chat and stuff like that. I don't think that that solves for not necessarily caring about reading.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, I mean, their biggest product launches in the last like year have been like Twitter Blue. So, Eric, you're going to have to give us your thoughts on Twitter Blue because you're the thought leader among us. And I'm subscribed to your Twitter Blue. I'm paying you $5 a month, and then they launched Twitter Spaces.
Eric Jorgenson: You might be getting scammed because I’m not on Twitter Blue, and I don't charge anybody for my tweets.
Matt Ferrel: Get on Twitter Blue, Eric, because I need to get this $5 back.
Ben Bator: You’ve got two subscribers right here.
Matt Ferrel: To Ben’s point, they're moving away from written word because I think that- and that's coming from the guy who launched Texts From Last Night. Like the whole concept of that was the idea of the snippet, the reading, the enjoyment, and the consumption of written word. And it's like that is not how people are consuming content. They are consuming content as a scroll. It is not a left to right reading experience. And so, it's a super interesting platform in that it is news in real time. There's information in real time. There's like the aspects of the platform in terms of scale and what it has to offer and what it can create, and that level of editorial, and the walls are down in the content world because of Twitter. But does that- Is that a monetizable aspect? Do I need to see Colgate toothpaste in intermixed in my Ukrainian war update? It has always been the thing that you're like, I'm reading Twitter because something bad is happening. I'm doom scrolling. And then when you're like- somebody's like, all right, so Google Pixel phone, and you're like what the fuck is going on? I'm like reading about some terrible tragedy, and then it's like, the Pixel phone is for everybody. And you're like that is in between two terrible things. It's never made sense as an ad platform for me.
Ben Bator: Maybe it doesn't need to be the biggest thing ever too. I think that Twitter just has tremendous utility as the bird app that people love. And it's an incredible communication tool as it is. And I think that the product decisions that have gotten them this far definitely weren't easy. And I don't- I always have to tell myself like you don't work at Twitter and you’re not a product engineer. I don't know; I know that these things are incredibly hard. The fact that we're still talking about an app that was down like 80% of the time when we first started using it is pretty incredible. So, that part's cool, but-
Matt Ferrel: It's succeeded where the biggest companies in the world didn't. Like Google Plus did not work. Google Plus did not work. They had unbelievable product engineers, and it still was like social feeds were Facebook and Twitter. And Facebook does not like exist anymore. So somehow Twitter has still won out in this insane way where you're like-
Eric Jorgenson: Google Plus didn't work, Google Wave didn't work, Google Buzz didn't work, Google whatever the fuck, they tried this so many times.
Matt Ferrel: Google Whatever the Fuck is what I launched, and I can see how that didn't work. We didn't name that one the way that we should have.
Eric Jorgenson: You should have hired American Lafayette. Lafayette American. Strike that, reverse it. I have Willy Wonka disease. Leave me alone.
Ben Bator: It wasn't- it's on the shirt, everyone. It's fine.
Matt Ferrel: I read bottom to top.
Ben Bator: There you go. We do have a strategy department, award winning. So yeah, anytime you guys want to talk product, listeners, lines are always open.
Eric Jorgenson: I mean, we gave away some of our ideas. But if they need more, they can always contact you.
Ben Bator: Unfortunately, if they want to build them, I have no idea how to do that. So good luck, guys. But it’s the same as- they got that figured out.
Eric Jorgenson: We've gotten tremendously off track.
Ben Bator: Eric, did you see this coming, that we would go over by 20 minutes and this far to this side?
Eric Jorgenson: And we're not done. And I mean, we're exploring, we're road tripping. That was part of the plan. So, I feel like- did you adequately feel like you've covered your legacy auto and charging infrastructure soapbox, Ben? I feel interested in your vision for the future of American road tripping. Like, if that is in here.
Ben Bator: That was kind of the- I mean, really, my- I don't know, how do you want to tee this one up in terms of the soapbox? How does the soapbox portion of the podcast work?
Eric Jorgenson: Well, this is new to me. I feel like you guys brainstorm and fix things constantly. I have recently started a list where I believe that we three may be able to solve all the world's problems by putting our heads together and using the power of like #creativityandbusiness. And I'm very interested to see what we can come up with here. I would like to fix movie theaters, and I have some strong opinions about this. I'm happy to go first if that is seconded and ratified by you two.
Ben Bator: I'll second that.
Matt Ferrel: I've got a pen. I’ll sign it.
Eric Jorgenson: Next time we'll I have a gavel, I guess. So just let me know if this is something Lafayette is interested in. This came up originally, I've been thinking about this for a long time. So, when AMC for some reason became basically free at the beginning of the pandemic, and the stock was like zero cents – AMC is a Kansas City company, by the way – and I was like, oh cool, someone awesome is going to buy this thing because it's too valuable to just disappear, but it's $4 to buy this amazing company and all these assets and all these theaters. And what would it look like if Netflix bought all of AMC? What would it look like if Disney bought all of AMC? And I started going down this rabbit hole of being like, oh, this would be really pretty cool. So, I can imagine like Disney doing that and having special premieres for Disney Plus content and actual characters at the things and just generally having them be clean and well decorated and stuff like that. And then Amazon for a while was actually in talks to buy AMC. It didn't happen, I guess, and who knows if it will now. But I was like, oh, that's obviously discounts for Prime members, early releases of Prime Video movies, that would be amazing. I can like pick up shit there because they've got a ton of space, and so they can have all their Amazon lockers there and maybe grocery or whatever. And they have those cool Amazon Go stores, so they wouldn't even need staff there for the- you could just put a little Amazon Go grocery store in the corner of the theater that's open to the public and serves as the movie theater snack thing or whatever. So, grab and go concessions would be amazing. So, there's like the brand brainstorms. The last time- Two or three weeks ago, I went to a movie, and then afterwards, we were getting pedicures. I was sitting at the salon, and I was getting a pedicure and sitting in a massage chair. And I was like all movie theaters should have massage chairs in them. This is a no brainer. And then I just made an enormous list of everything that I think could be improved about movie theater. So, first things first, no horror movie previews allowed, certainly outside the month of October, and potentially unless there's like an R rated movie. So, easy, easy there. I can't be going to see like Encanto and be watching Halloween 13 movie previews. I'm a grown ass man, and I still don't want to do that. We can't have like Allison who's seven in there. And massage chairs in every seat, obvious, already covered that. If I get a pillow and a blanket when I'm in a plane, there's no excuse for not having one in the movie theater. First class movie theater treatment, pillow and blanket in every seat. I shouldn't ever really have to leave the audio experience of the movie, even if I have to go to the bathroom or get snack refills. There’re a few ways to solve that. One is small snack refills and bathrooms in the back of each theater, and you just put small screens and speakers inside there. Another is maybe to get headphones that are like silent disco headphones, and you just put those on, also helpful if you've got just like assholes in the movie theater. So, it's like noise cancelling headphones. Just put me in my own little universe in there. That feels good. Ideal for me personally is foods spaced out throughout the movie. You can't sit me down with like one big bucket in the beginning and expect me to pace myself through 30 minutes of previews because that's going to be gone by the time the movie starts. So that is just- I need different foods delivered. And so, if it is an hour and a half movie, I need snacks every 30 minutes. If it's three hours, I need snacks every hour. So, you can space out those three, that's good.
Matt Ferrel: I'm liking this. I'm liking this.
Eric Jorgenson: Okay, we're only halfway through.
Matt Ferrel: There is a question that I think solves this almost immediately.
Eric Jorgenson: Are you just going to tell me to stay home?
Matt Ferrel: No. Have you been to like Brooklyn- or what is it? Texas- Alamo Drafthouse or IPIC which is in California was like a bed. It was actually creepy and kind of like- you're like, I know this place only employs- So this place probably employs like six people maximum and there's like 15 beds in here in six theaters. So, I know the caliber of cleaning that these things are going through. But Eric, I do not want to stop you on this train. But I do want to interject and say some of these things have and remain to be solved.
Ben Bator: I bet that not at an AMC level, which that's an important fact. But also, I would love to just see like- Yeah, I think taking some of those mainstream is an excellent idea. Continue, I know you are only halfway there.
Eric Jorgenson: Big fan of Alamo Drafthouse, big fan of IPIC. There is an IPIC in New York, Matt, if you need it. And just take your own Clorox wipes, and you should be good.
Matt Ferrel: I'm just going to bring a bottle. I feel like it's just an over-the-top type of thing.
Eric Jorgenson: So, the other, especially AMC, I need some healthier foods. I want to be eating through the entire movie for 2 hours and 30 minutes, so I need foods that I can eat. You can't give me like a bucket of canola oil and expect that to like- I can't eat popcorn for 3 hours. So, give me some carrot sticks, some celery. There's nothing fresh in those places at all. Something long lasting, an everlasting gobstopper for like the last 30 minutes. Something, just help me out there, much more configuration. That's why the Amazon kind of like convenience store thing, I feel like, makes sense. Okay, there's now, in the noise management category, Faraday cages. Just put them in. I don't need my phone in there at all. And Matt, or Ben just learned about Do Not Disturb mode. So, I don't even know what you're like in a movie theater.
Ben Bator: That was me rolling my phone across the room.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, just shove it down there. We could get some former librarians in there. I feel like they're way too soft on the talkers. Just like a cop in the corner just like writing tickets. I don't need jaywalking tickets. But I do need talking movie theater tickets. There's much more social disruption that happens there.
Ben Bator: Like Alamo Drafthouse meets Delta One is what you want because there's an Air Marshal.
Eric Jorgenson: That’s a beautiful pitch. Yeah, TSA. The casino- I was inspired by casinos for the next point which is you know they up the oxygen level to keep you awake and a little hype to keep you playing? I think oxygen for sure or a light dose of laughing gas maybe, like elevate my comedy experience beyond what I might experience at home, really get everybody in on the thing.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, my former concert experience, I understand what drugs can do to an experience. I get that.
Eric Jorgenson: Make it part of the environment, like no opt out. I want everybody in there to kind of be-
Ben Bator: We had a clean audio on that one, Matt. That was all Eric's window. It was the only one lit up, so we're-
Matt Ferrel: Okay, no opt out. Got it. Everyone's doing drugs. We're all doing drugs here. We all said yes. We all signed on the dotted line. We all went through TSA, and we are ready to watch.
Eric Jorgenson: It was in the small print above the door handle. Yeah, now here we go.
Ben Bator: Enjoy the movie.
Eric Jorgenson: In the programming category, I want to go to see a whole series in a day. Let me do like a Game of Thrones series on a Sunday, like a ten episode. I like a whole category of a day pass. So, I want like the Nicolas Cage day pass and go from like Con Air, Gone in Sixty Seconds, Lord of War, and then Massive Talent. Just like this is going to be a niche. Maybe that's a niche one, but there's empty theaters all over the place. There's no reason you can't be doing that. Just throw up a bunch of landing pages, advertise some stuff, see what sticks. People will show up for that. Post show, give me some bonus materials, bloopers, light things. You know how like you leave a movie and you're like now I want to watch that TV episode where Nicolas Cage had a cameo in Seinfeld or I don't know, I don't think he was ever in a cameo in Seinfeld, this is just what we've been talking about. And then here's the cherry on top of the whole Delta One Alamo Drafthouse experience, because I really like that, Ben, as a tagline, when you get out to your car, it's been washed and detailed. Where else do you park reliably for like two hours at a time where you're just like, here you go, here's the keys, clean it up. Let's take it from there. I have never understood why I have to go to a carwash. I park all the time. Somebody just come wash my car as an add on service while I’m at a place that I’m going to be at for a while.
Matt Ferrel: LA baby, you’ve got to go to Los Angeles. In Los Angeles, anything can be a carwash.
Ben Bator: Eric, this actually this could combine really nicely with what I was kind of thinking about. But my charging infrastructure thing was a lot less baked than yours. But I do think that a small-scale version of this across the country off highways in a way that's almost like pod style movie theater experiences while your car charges. And so, it's like included with the price of charging, then you get add ons like snacks, whatever. It's all through one app. You see when your thing is done, but you're not done with the movie yet and you smash the like “wash it” button, and then someone comes and washes your car. And then they plug in the next guy.
Eric Jorgenson: I am very curious about the existing gas stations of today are not going to be- you can't spend 30 minutes at a gas station today.
Ben Bator: You can if you go with 30 people, and you're on a road trip. As soon as you stop and someone needs gas, everyone needs something.
Matt Ferrel: I know the inventory of every mid to northern Michigan convenience store. Name a hostess cake. I can tell you exactly what we're talking about here.
Eric Jorgenson: -in Manistee; that’s a good one.
Matt Ferrel: The charging thing does add a level of a time that dynamic that formerly did not exist where it's like charging your car takes 45 minutes or something from zero. And sure, Tesla's added YouTube into a car and Netflix into a car park, but there is this very idle time. You might be next to like a Flying J or a Pilot like truck stop, and you can go have hashbrowns and then indigestion like five minutes later. But there's this extended period of time that I think could be optimized. I actually sincerely think that there is something there. I think it's probably less communal and probably more individualized.
Ben Bator: Still, I think, this group, actually, Eric, when you said that, I'm not going to say I was skeptical, but now I think we could actually all solve this because I think programming is really the key to the future of infrastructure in terms of charging for at least the United States because you now have 45 minute blocks of time that entire families and cars full of people are going to need to account for, and it's totally different from what they've done in the past. So, it's like, should AMC just become a- instead of triple down on the movie experience, which is becoming different and that format might be changing, it's the thing that everyone always says, should Starbucks just become a big network of chargers? But what if AMC did?
Eric Jorgenson: I think the big winner here could be Dave and Busters. And let me make my case. You've been in a car for three hours, you've been sitting still, you need to move, you need some Dance Dance Revolution. You need to be doing things maybe with the people that you're with. Maybe you want to go solo. But you don't want to be like sitting in a dark room and staring when you've been sitting and staring, so maybe little more of an arcade than a movie theater. And anybody can have fun in a Dave and Busters for 45 minutes.
Matt Ferrel: I'm certainly not the audience for what you just pitched, but I like the idea of me driving for three hours and being like, God, I need Dance Dance Revolution. I have been sitting but I have not been pressing forward, forward, back, two sides simultaneously, forward, back.
Eric Jorgenson: You're not supposed to sit next to it and play it with your hands.
Matt Ferrel: I have never known how to play this. You have just opened the door that I did not know what was going to be behind. I mean, I'm not opposed to the idea of a shoot 'em up time crisis. And then just get right back in the car in pure silence with your children in the back and finish the rest of the ride.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, some air hockey. You get a whole mix of things going. You got plenty of real estate right off of a lot of those exits. Put it up right next to the Lion’s Den.
Ben Bator: Oh god. I think there's a lot of- on my Southern road trip, I’ve driven between here and Miami a couple times, mostly because of the pandemic and also because of a longer story – I have a friend who would drive his car down every year. And the other thing I think is going to have a little comeback are those kind of like roadside amusement parks. Perfect timing. You pull in, there's 15 to like 30 chargers, and some people are going to go to the amusement park. It's like you're already doing this thing you have to do. And it's like, how am I going to entertain my kids? I feel like those are probably undervalued real estate options that are going to probably pick back up or would be smart buys if you're a real estate investor right now.
Eric Jorgenson: Those little like putt-putt kind of things?
Matt Ferrel: Yeah. Isn't it crazy? In a weird way, obviously, highways have made the interstate travel substantially faster, but it also killed the small town. You've all heard the stories about Route 66 and all of these now ghost towns, or you've got even Michigan Avenue from Detroit to Chicago. Everyone goes 94 now, but if there's traffic or whatever. But the concept of electric vehicle charging and I mean, obviously, what's going to be optimized is charging is going to take the same amount of time as filling up the gas tank. But the idea that it like reverses back and self-driving cars and these small towns all of a sudden become the real estate and tourist attractions of their former glory. And you're like, yeah, I mean, self-driving and highways doesn't necessarily need to exist anymore. We just pull into some small town on Route 66 or on these interstate smaller two lane highways. And you're like, all right, I can go get a sandwich. I can go putt-putt. I can go do whatever at the local cinema that has two screens in it. And get back in my electric car and be like, wow, that small town is really lovely, I wonder why I never heard of it before. And it was because the eight lane highway that's a half a mile down the road just like cut off population to it. I think that's going to be this weird rediscovery of small-town America, these small charging ports.
Eric Jorgenson: There's an amazing place between- I'm sure there's many amazing places so far, but the one that sticks out to me between Kansas City and Detroit, which I have done this drive now many times, Chillicothe, Missouri, is the home of sliced bread. And I have not yet gotten off the freeway to find out what they mean, but I look forward to doing that someday.
Ben Bator: I bet when you go to charge the Pollstar, you're going to pull off that the sliced bread charging station. It writes itself. It's the best thing since sliced bread, and you have an EV charger right there.
Matt Ferrel: Can you imagine how boring that tour is? They're like, well, there was bread. And then we sliced it. And they're like anything else? No, nothing else. People keep doing it.
Eric Jorgenson: 15 years later, we added the serration to the knife, found that really helped with the crust. That's pretty much it.
Matt Ferrel: I love, this is something that I hope we don't optimize and that we keep forever, the hyper niche functionally uninteresting museums that exist in small towns. Like something was discovered there. And then you're like, this is the museum, and you open the door and it's one room and it's like a rock. And it's like, this was the rock we found. And you're like, is that rock substantial? And they're like, no. And you're like, that is the museum. That's perfect. Like there's a museum we drive by in Mille every year that's this taxidermy museum. And I guarantee- I never stopped in it. I push for it every year. I think it would be an absolute hit. And by that, I mean a 30-minute interlude into something that's already time crunched and that we don't have time for. But I imagine you just walk in and you're like, that's a bear. And you're like, yeah, that is a bear. And that's the whole museum. There's no staff behind it. You're like, can you tell me what type of bear it is? And like, no, we just stuffed it. No one picked it up from the taxidermy company, so we made a museum of unclaimed taxidermy that we have.
Eric Jorgenson: There's one of these in Kansas City that I have not yet been brave enough to go to. I think it's only one room, but it is a woman who has been collecting the hair of famous people for like her entire life. And just like dead people, live people, just hair everywhere in these frames. It is a horrifying Google. I don't know if I will ever be brave enough to go myself in person.
Matt Ferrel: I mean, I only have one question. It's not that long of a visit. It's like, how’d you get it? And then if she says something creepier-
Eric Jorgenson: Your hair belongs in that museum. Would you be willing to donate some of your hair to this hair museum?
Matt Ferrel: I mean, I'd gladly give some of this.
Eric Jorgenson: I think it would stand out. I think it’d stand out even amongst some of the most famous hair of all time.
Matt Ferrel: Is that a positive thing? Is that a standout as in I have some nice hair? Or is it like damn, that hair is fucked up?
Eric Jorgenson: No, it's beautiful.
Matt Ferrel: Can I tell you a quick side story? Hair has never been my point of pride about myself. There's a lot of things I love about myself, but my hair is not one. Well, now it's quickly getting up there. I am not one of those people that I would consider consistent in my barber shop visits. I know some people are every three weeks, etc. Since moving to the neighborhood that I live in in New York, I kind of- there’s two shops, and I'm like if there's an appointment or whatever available, I'll go. I go to this new guy to get my haircut. It’s the first time. His name's John. The first time I ever get my haircut, we kind of just made chitchat, whatever. And at the end of the cut, he's done, and he's like, hey, remind me what your name is again. And I go, Matt. And he says next the line that I think raised my ego to a level that was almost- and he goes, I won't remember your name, but I'll remember this hair. And I was like, what? That's the coolest thing anyone's ever said to me. Now I have a barber. I know I started that story by saying I don't normally keep a consistent barber. John is my barber now because I won't remember your name, but I'll remember your hair? If that was delivered by anyone other than a barber, I would call the cops. But from a barber- Probably the woman that runs the museum, probably the woman who runs the museum says that. That was a big day for me. I think I texted everyone I knew immediately after that. And I was like- because there's few things more dangerous than a guy after a good haircut. The level of swagger and confidence that you have is like insane. You're taking- men that have never taken selfies before, like 70-year-old fathers who barely know how to text are like, I got to get a picture of this. And it's like a 30 minute- like a fleeting thing. Like it revs up and it immediately comes down. You come back to earth.
Eric Jorgenson: I can't believe women can do this like all the time. They get a blowout, and they feel the same, but they can do that all the time. On demand.
Matt Ferrel: I've known Ben through a number of iterations of great hair. I know that we're three guys talking about hair, and by the way, good hair across the board. For listeners at home that can't see in this audio based medium, we're talking to three guys, nice hair.
Ben Bator: I’d recommended finding this on YouTube if you can, just for Eric's. I mean, really-
Eric Jorgenson: I tried to organize my hair because I knew it would have to stand up favorably to two other incredible heads of hair, and I just wanted to be able to hang with you guys in the hair department.
Ben Bator: You're hanging, you're hanging. You're hanging.
Eric Jorgenson: Get a full Marie Kondo up there. It's like keep your shit together for just an hour, hour and a half tops.
Ben Bator: Just an hour and a half. That's all you need.
Eric Jorgenson: I’m trying not to touch it, which is difficult for me.
Matt Ferrel: So, I think we've solved charging infrastructure. I think we've solved movie theaters. And honest to God, Eric, I think you might be the most well researched person in terms of product improvement, which is scary because there are people that own movie theaters, but I think that they still haven't done the amount of research that you have in that.
Eric Jorgenson: I mean, to Ben's point about Twitter, I don't want to make it sound easy. I don't know how to do that job. I'm sure they're working with razor thin margins. I know they only make money on the snacks. I would just like to see a little more innovation. That's probably why I love Alamo Drafthouse. I feel like they're real movie people. I feel like they're really putting all into something creative. And I'm really mostly just disappointed at AMC for being the big dog and doing the bare minimum. And I just want to see some more innovation, more thoughtful.
Ben Bator: I feel like that's fair criticism, though, right? Because it's not like, hey, redo your entire business model. It's like improve the things you already know are working. Like most of your improvements were around snacks and availability to increase the amount of snacking you can eat in a movie, which does sound terrifying, the amount of snacks you could eat during an entire movie. But they should be embracing this. Like, that's an opportunity.
Eric Jorgenson: Fucking carrots. It's not that hard.
Matt Ferrel: And drugs. We're skipping right over the big one.
Ben Bator: I mean, they could have a dispensary right in the front, too. I mean, let's not forget that- You could also have it so if you're doing pre orders of tickets, they could say, okay, you're going to watch this movie, it's about two hours long, take this edible about an hour before, and you'll have a good ride.
Matt Ferrel: I like that. Well, my fix is a little bit more demonstrative. It's the idea of the large-scale conference. And what I mean by that is the large panel talks at like a CES, or God bless them, South by Southwest or something like that. And the fix is really just stopped doing them. It doesn't make sense. And I think all of us have been fortunate enough to speak on panels and even attend these conferences. But the idea of paying for like a $500 pass to sit in an audience to think that you're going to learn about something, in my case around the idea of the future of digital marketing or something. And then you have five people up on stage that just say nothing for 30 minutes. And it's like almost insane. You're like, the thing about the internet is it's wide open, and it's yours for the taking. And you're like, what does that even mean? I haven't learned anything from that. There is so much content that is available through your podcast or through YouTube or things like that. If you actually want to learn about something, you can just do it for free and on your own time. The idea of paying thousands and thousands of dollars to go listen to somebody say absolutely nothing on stage because they're afraid their PR team is going to fire them, it's insane to me. It's so insane. Like go to South by Southwest to go see concerts. Let's be honest about what it is. And you can go watch a keynote conversation with Jack Dorsey or Elon on Joe Rogan for free. Like, he's going to do three hours. You're listening to him for 25 minutes, and he’s going to be like, Elon, how do you do it? He's like, well, we're busy, and we do- and you're like, oh, my God, I just paid $700 to hear a guy say he's busy. And not to bring this back to something that Ben and I have launched, but this experience with Mille- Yeah, the thing that Ben and I launched with Mille Mitten, which was not intended to be a networking or a conference-esque thing or anything along those lines, and it isn't in its title. And I think, Eric, you've been to a couple of things like these boot camps or the Capital Camps and things like that, where you're with people and experiencing impressive people in their actual life, but you're not talking about work. You're like being friends. Those are the conferences that are interesting. The idea that someone young in their career is going to be 21 or 22 going to like a 14,000-person conference sitting in the audience and have their mind blown by somebody is so unlikely, and it is almost predatory. My fix of that product is to remove the idea of large scale audience conferences and focus on the idea of smaller gatherings with actual experience or actual conversation and have people commit actual time to the conversation. I don't know how you guys feel about that. But I've been thinking about that over the last couple of years and being like, why do these things exist? Every single time I go to one I'm like, this is shocking.
Ben Bator: No, I think now that whole- I went to South By this year, and I found that everyone was kind of like, I can't believe we used to do this because now you're coming off of like three years of listening to really great podcasts with people that you jump around whether it's you really like the hosts because you just like the way a tall guy sounds on the radio or you really like the people that are coming on, which like- anyone who's still with us. But it's like you can go and listen to a ton of great podcasts that have people, I mean, I'll listen to one podcast because I like the guests. I'll listen to every podcast if I like the host. And you can do that on a weekly basis on your own time. And then, the thing about- and then you go back to our other favorite thing, Twitter, it's like you can literally just reply to them on Twitter and say, I heard you on this podcast, you were great. And they'll probably write back or at least like it, and then you feel pretty good about that. It's like you go to a conference, like Matt’s saying, you listen to them for 32 minutes talking about how busy they are and how their vision for the future is like more magnets, and you're just like sick, anything else? And then you never see the panelist again because they go out through the back door, and they're ushered into a town car. And they're off to the airport. And they're on to the next thing. Yeah, I agree. I think you can basically get all of that and make it easier not just on the listener, but also on the person who's there to speak because they could do it from their own house. Good call on the podcast, Eric.
Eric Jorgenson: Well, I like knowing that people can pause us and insert us into their lives at their leisure. They can speed us up and slow us down.
Matt Ferrel: You can have snacks through an entire podcast. That's the other thing – you can eat at any moment during a podcast. Whereas at a conference, they're going to give you a terrible bagel. Like, the whole thing is just going to be- It really is like, it is shocking how much- because working on bigger brands and everything like that, you realize people are sponsoring it, so there's sponsorship dollars, then there's people paying ticket prices for it. And Eric, sorry, if you're launching a conference, and I’m actively beating you down on this. It's just like there's so much capital involved in something that could be reallocated, at least in my opinion, in a much more meaningful experience or something where there's an actual think tank. The conversations or at least the panel talks are actually interactive, instead of somebody's hosting, they get through two questions, and the panels done, and you're like, oh, that was the one person I wanted to see speak, and they didn't say anything.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah. Like, what is the job to be done of a conference? It's mostly, I think, for people to expense a week off of work and to go party and commit adultery and hang out in Austin instead of sit at their desk and do their job. And so, the relevance, the excellence of the content is really like an excuse. Because I totally agree with you. And I actually think I had this epiphany at Capital Camp. So, Capital Camp is a very well run conference. It's a small group of people. And every time I have gone, I’ve gone three times now, every time, there's less and less stage time I think because they are seeing the exact thing. You look around the room, and you're like everyone here just wants to talk to each other and meet each other and interact and get resorted. And the first year, everyone who showed up at that thing signed an NDA. To be in the audience, you have to sign an NDA of whatever was said on the stage. And still everyone who went up there, it was like PR mode because I think there is no secret that is shared from the stage. It just doesn't happen. And so how often are valuable things actually shared from there? Almost never. You’ve got to get in the backroom and get in a hallway. And that can happen at conferences, but to your point exactly, it could be engineered way, way better. And I have had thoughts of doing like some super small scale, something that's way more like Mille Mitten I think that's organized around interest, but still has some group of people who are into the same things or would at least enjoy meeting each other for multiple overlapping reasons. That seems cool. And I want to spend as much of my life as I can doing interesting things with interesting people who I enjoy and respect and learn from and hopefully will be friends with for a long time. And the more different ways that you can remix that seems super fun to me.
Matt Ferrel: Well, one of the funnier stories, and I think Ben will remember this, like the Mille reference is no one really talks about work at Mille. You have people from all different walks of life. There's clearly- we bring chefs on the trip and so each meal is prepared by a chef that runs the restaurant or something. And we do fun challenges. We'll have pick up food from a roadside stand or they'll have some stuff and they'll make something that night. I had a friend who had bought a camera and was taking photos like the entire weekend. And I think it was the closing party, like this is to the point that no one talks about what they do, they just talk about experiencing this fun thing. It's sort of like whitewater rafting in a way, no one's going to be like, so what do you do? as you're going over rapids. Like, you're on a rocket ship, and you're just like, all right, keep up. No one's going to be like, so what do you do for fun? You're like going over like class five rapids. We finish and this girl walks up to my friend George and is like, so how long have you been a photographer? I'd love to see some of the photos that you took of the trip. And he's like, I'm an IP attorney. It was like three days in, four days in. And it's like- but she knew George. She just didn't know George with a law degree. Yeah, that's a really- every single experience that I've had, I mean, in fact, I had drinks two nights ago with someone that I met, that Ben and I candidly probably met on Mille, Helena, the founder of Haus, the aperitif brand. Helena was just like on the trip. We just were like, oh, I'm friends with Helena, and we were talking yesterday, it's like, I've never really known what she does for work. Obviously, I know that she's the owner of the brand. And she's never really known what I do for work. And we know each other. And that is the network. That is the experience. I can ask her things from a much more authentic place than the idea of a conference where you're like deeply trying to give someone a business card and maybe connect with them on LinkedIn and say, I liked your talk. It just doesn't- There's no natural progression of a relationship or a network. And that's what everyone always- Eric, to your point, it’s like, oh, I get to expense a party, I get to expense a hotel room, I get to go to dinner. The value is, in fact, the spending of the company's money, not what you bring back from the event.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, this is a principal agent like value proposition.
Matt Ferrel: So, we solved it. So, South by Southwest, you are on notice. CES-
Eric Jorgenson: Stop it. Especially the panels but also potentially everything else.
Ben Bator: It's just brands going down there. It's like just stop with the speakers. There's no- we have enough TED talks on the internet. And now it's just like let Lizzo play, and everything will be fine.
Matt Ferrel: The concert- What is it?
Eric Jorgenson: -conference again, or a concert again.
Ben Bator: Make it a concert, make it a film premiere, and then have like tech demonstrations or whatever or launches maybe.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, gone are those days, but yeah. Find me on Foursquare.
Eric Jorgenson: Thank you for fixing that, Matt. I've been waiting for someone to fix that. I can't believe no one has just said stop doing panels before because that was all it took. And now we're good. Everyone can hear this. Cut it. Cut the bullshit and be done. There is no excuse for them to still be doing it.
Matt Ferrel: I’m going to get so much hate from people that are like I just want to go on a vacation. Why won't you let me go to Pebble Beach every year? I'm like, no pay for it yourself.
Eric Jorgenson: I mean, if you're going to do a boondoggle, there's better boondoggles than, I don't know, Austin, Texas, in the summer for South By. Like Pebble Beach is a boondoggle I can get behind. That place is beautiful. Try having a conference in Hawaii. Win a sales award. There you go. Earn your company paid vacation. Get in the President's circle or whatever. Is that what they call it?
Matt Ferrel: Every organization has some insane thing of like the Diamond Buyers Club, and you're like what? And you're like, I'm a Diamond Buyers President Circle four-star salesperson, sales general.
Eric Jorgenson: I'm glad you weren't trying to get to Dallas Buyers Club because that's what was in my head. I was like that's a different thing.
Ben Bator: I just go to the Domino's Pizza Rolex. That's what- I don't want a trip, just give me the Rolex with the company brand on it.
Matt Ferrel: Like the Air King. And it was after 30 years of work or something, you just got a Rolex. Rolex does not do custom dials, and they just have a Domino's one. I love that. It’s the coolest-
Ben Bator: It is the coolest one.
Eric Jorgenson: That's awesome. I wonder if that's eBay-able.
Ben Bator: Oh, it is. They are like 20 grand.
Eric Jorgenson: That's less than a Hummer.
Ben Bator: Yeah, exactly. If you can get the down payment back from McLaren, I think that would be- Right there.
Eric Jorgenson: Okay, I have one last set of challenges for this panel of creative excellence if you guys are up for it. Okay, I have been struggling to continue to love the extremely haphazard name and brand with which I started this podcast. So, if you were going to rename this podcast, what do you think? What is swimming around in your brains?
Matt Ferrel: I mean, I'm going for your name, and I'm just trying to figure out-
Eric Jorgenson: Puns.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, I was going to say like come on a Jorg with me.
Eric Jorgenson: Nope. Nope. Immediate veto.
Matt Ferrel: Let's go Jorging.
Eric Jorgenson: I wasn't expecting excellence, but I wasn’t expecting that.
Matt Ferrel: Come on a jorg. Let's go jorgging. It's listening to your podcast while moving quickly is in fact a new verb called jorgging.
Ben Bator: The Apple integration should be out by the time you listen to this. So, you might notice if you've been walking, you get a little- you finish your circle, you will have a set for Jorg.
Matt Ferrel: So, no, that's a no? Am I hearing a no or is that a yes?
Eric Jorgenson: How about we put a pin in that.
Ben Bator: He likes it. I’m hearing him turn around. I'm hearing him turn around.
Eric Jorgenson: This is the agency way – just sell him on your first idea.
Matt Ferrel: It always comes back to the first. That’s the best. Everything goes down from here.
Ben Bator: Not to get inside the sausage here, but the way it's going to work, Eric, is you're going to be taking a jorg later tonight, and you're going to think, I'm going to call- I'm going to do something with this Jorg thing, they're really onto it. So, it is going to become your idea. And then we're going to be like, I don't know about Jorg. But if you like it, we could probably some up with something around there. That would be the Jedi mind trick way of getting you to Jorg.
Eric Jorgenson: You did just drop a pretty- like what about inside the sausage?
Ben Bator: Who doesn't want to go there?
Matt Ferrel: Because that's not in fact the saying. So, inside the sausage lost me nearly immediately but also broke me deeply. Owning it. I want to get it.
Ben Bator: But that's ownable IP, Matt. That's ownable.
Matt Ferrel: I like the idea of being on a panel discussion and being like, I don't want to get inside the sausage with you guys.
Eric Jorgenson: That is exactly what Ben just said. I don't think that was a misquote. But I may be wrong.
Matt Ferrel: You should have given me at least 30 minutes because the Jorg came right to the head. But I've got-
Eric Jorgenson: A Jorg to the head. I’ll jot that down.
Matt Ferrel: You have a lot of things in your name that I feel like could be pun-able. But I think you want to go away from the name. Do you not like- Are we talking about Soundbox? What are we not liking about the existing name?
Eric Jorgenson: I feel like I have to explain it. It's a pun, but it's a pun that has to be explained, which makes it not a super good pun. And it just feels like, I don't know, it's not very descriptive. I find myself ashamed to say the name, the title of it, which I feel like is a good sign that I should probably change it. And I have an inkling. But that's what this creative panel is for.
Matt Ferrel: What about like Eric Jorgenson Experience?
Eric Jorgenson: Oh, like a direct rip off. Like the Joe Rogan podcast, but taller and worse.
Matt Ferrel: Yeah, no, it's the experience. It's called borrow with pride. It's not stealing, it's borrow with pride.
Ben Bator: Did know that some of the most popular podcasts are called the experience with the person's name? Have you heard this? I think that everybody gets embarrassed by the name of the thing that they do. It's like you say it enough, and you just start to hate it. There's no way around it. Part of the problem is just that I think, especially as it's so close to you, it's like a very- it's kind of a part of you. You're giving actually a lot of yourself to this. So, if you don't love the name, even if you do love the name, you're going to say it enough where you're going to have a week where you're like I don't really like that episode or whatever. I'm talking about like the week following this one where you're just like, oh my god, what am I doing? So, I think that's going to happen with any of them. But what are you looking- What are you trying to convey with the name? Like, what do you want people to feel when you say the name of the podcast?
Eric Jorgenson: I would like them to understand a little bit more about what they are getting out of it. Like the soundbox is maybe descriptive a little bit, but it's not particularly like, it does not evoke any feeling of desire or clarity about, oh, yeah, no, I'm interested in exploring that or I feel like I could explain that to another person. So, the brainstorm that I have is to rename the podcast Eric Has Smart Friends. And the context would be I have smart friends, and if you listen to this podcast, you do too. Like I am who I am because I learned all of this from all these other people, and I use this platform to kind of showcase them and bring you into this. I treat Twitter like my digital living room, and the podcast is an extension of that. I feel like that is appropriately like not self-aggrandizing but puts the spotlight on guests and people who come in, but it still has enough of my name in there to be like, oh, I follow that guy on Twitter and I'd be interested in the people that he wants to talk to. So, it is connected but not spotlight-y, experience-y the Eric Show, which is not my vibe.
Matt Ferrel: Well, I think that's great.
Ben Bator: I would just change it to Our Smart Friends. Bring the listener in. You can be like, hi, I'm Eric, and these are our smart friends.
Eric Jorgenson: Matt is visibly impressed by that by that idea.
Ben Bator: I saw the eyebrows go up. No Botox on this guy. Look, he's got expression up there. I'm like Scott Dezik. You didn’t hear it from me.
Matt Ferrel: The two parter is first, Ben, nice. Two, that name change has to occur after our episode comes out because it is a damn lie, at least in this-
Ben Bator: This is a sound box. This is definitely a soundbox.
Matt Ferrel: Everything before and after this, this is like an in because most of this is unusable. For those listening at home, we've been podcasting for four and a half hours, and this is going to be a 30 minute podcast. But I like Our Smart Friends.
Eric Jorgenson: Yeah, I like bringing everybody in because I want that to be the vibe. So, we may as well just put that right in the title. I feel like it loses a little bit of the comedy, like the side eye piece, but that maybe is okay and possibly preferential.
Matt Ferrel: The name does not need to be perfect. And this is coming from two people that launched a project called Mille Mitten, and we have run it for 10 years, and Ben and I love the name Mille Mitten. We love it. Anyone who asks, including yourself on this podcast, is like so is it mile, mile mitten? Like nobody- There's no name that encapsulates everything that you want from it. It's like we have it exactly how we want and it's nod and a reference to something. But the pronunciation-
Eric Jorgenson: You are also not trying to grow that at all or like let anybody else in on that. It's perfect for you and that's beautiful.
Ben Bator: Yeah, I had Texts From Last Night and Lafayette American. One, I have to explain what it is, the other one people get.
Eric Jorgenson: I love Lafayette American because I get where it comes from. And it's perfect. I love that it feels professional, but there's also a Detroit secret behind it. I appreciate it deeply.
Matt Ferrel: We love that. We love that.
Ben Bator: It also could be located anywhere because there's a Lafayette Street everywhere.
Eric Jorgenson: That is a very good point.
Ben Bator: He was a rather influential guy, that Lafayette guy.
Eric Jorgenson: And thanks to Hamilton, he's got some more of the spotlight again. One of the many good things that Hamilton has done for us.
Matt Ferrel: Who knew? Who knew?
Ben Bator: What else can we do for you here today? Do you want anything else named?
Eric Jorgenson: This wasn’t intended to be a free consult, but it worked out incredibly well. I was expecting us to land somewhere like inside the sausage or come on a Jorg. But we ended in a much better place than that.
Ben Bator: Well, now that you're bringing those back up-
Matt Ferrel: Jorg still sounds like it’s good.
Ben Bator: It is kind of an ear worm actually, if you want to get into it. And it's ownable IP. I mean, really you could trademark that quickly.
Matt Ferrel: Come on a Jorg could be the subtitle of Our Smart Friends; come on a Jorg.
Ben Bator: I think you’d get more SEO than you think. Because the hardest thing is going to be the non-misspellings of like did you mean Jorg when people are typing let's go for a jog. That's going to be hard to own. But I think the people who just are kind of a bit missing some dexterity are going to come right to the right place.
Matt Ferrel: Eric, quick question, quick follow up, in your 30 plus years of life, has anyone given you that joke as to your name? Has anyone said you go jorging?
Eric Jorgenson: No, it's not a- I don't hear that one a lot. And that's a little- There were like four years of my life where I went by Jorgo. Like that was basically my name. So that was right on the surface for a long time.
Matt Ferrel: Oh, so that kind of was a twist of the knife. You went back, you retreated from Jorgo. And then I said come on a jorg. And you were like don't bring up the past. The past is the past, Matt.
Eric Jorgenson: No, I was- those were good years. The Jorgo years were good years. I have fond memories as that alter ego.
Matt Ferrel: Speaking of nicknames, and I know that we're at the end of this conversation, I thought about announcing a disclaimer at the beginning because Ben doesn't refer to me by my actual name. And so, I was going to be like just so everyone knows at home, if I say, Ken, I'm actually talking about Ben. And if Ben says Perry, he's talking about me. We don't- it is very infrequently I call Ben Ben, and I don't think he's ever called me Matt.
Ben Bator: I’ve called him Matt a couple times, but normally it's either Perry, Pete. It's just like I don't know where all those came from. But one day, I just was like, he kind of feels like a Pete.
Matt Ferrel: We didn't have to cross that bridge. I just wanted to get you inside the sausage, Jorgo.
Eric Jorgenson: I love to be inside a good sausage. I appreciate you guys including me. Thank you for semi explaining that.
Ben Bator: Yeah, the problem with being on a podcast where it looks and feels kind of like Zoom is I keep forgetting that we're recording this for like a purpose. And I just keep thinking that we're just all hanging out like back at the Sarpino’s where we kind of had this idea we should do a podcast, which is also giving exactly what we thought it would. But I just want to apologize to once again the editing team, everybody back in the studio, the audience, mostly the audience.
Matt Ferrel: Our presenting sponsor GM, Nissan, and Ford, our friends at Marriott Bonvoy, our preferred dessert sponsor Milk Bar.
Ben Bator: Let's not forget getting inside of the sausage with Johnsonville.
Eric Jorgenson: If you don't have a big- if you can't afford a big sausage budget, you can at least get a milspecauto.com Hummer.
Matt Ferrel: With promo code Jorg.
Eric Jorgenson: You can get $30 off on your deposit of $100,000 for a $300,000 automobile.
Matt Ferrel: It’s a good deal. It's an incredible deal.
Eric Jorgenson: Just be sure you list me as your refer because I get a $50,000 hand back.
Ben Bator: And the recipient when you-
Matt Ferrel: -and the shipping address is?